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tv   Book TV  CSPAN  March 21, 2010 10:00am-11:00am EDT

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taking an idea to haiti and what if you were born haitian? if i started following this guy around, if he let me, he would disturb my peace of mind. anyway, somewhere around 2000, late 1999, i got in touch with him. and he invited me to come see him at brigham young hospital and to follow him around for a month. i did an article about him. i later learned -- and then after that i asked for access to go on and write a book. which he granted although it took him a while for him to grant it. i don't think he really wanted this. but what i've heard since then a couple of his closest colleagues -- when i post the magazine profile said something
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that we're broke as usual and not enough people know about this work so why don't you take a chance. that's pretty much the long-winded answer so thank you. >> can i just add there is nights where like me and my executive board -- there's only six people doing this whole college-wide event. and, you know, sometimes we just got so systemic over a span of eight months trying to convince people trying to raise awareness and we just always refer to your book so i'm really glad you wrote it and he gave you the opportunity so thank you. >> thank you. [applause] .. you. >> thank you. [applause] >> a tough act to follow. oe great presentation, great slides and i just wanted to know, beyond writing a check and sending it to this address, which of course is a noble and good thing to do, can you get into what you could consider two
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to three short-term and long-term solutions that might be applicable to reversing the problems on this continent? >> on the continent of africa? [laughter] >> let's, let's make it more to your specific country or what the grameen bank style microfinance do anything, or whatever you suggest? >> i'm not a great expert in this >> i'm not a great expert. i do think international aid as currently practiced is so filled with laws it is just horrifying in some ways. the money that never gets to people it is supposed to get to. that needs to be reformed very bad day. that would be helpful. obviously that is not told a answer i don't think there is anyone who you answer. not with any of these problems. sometimes i think it is a big mistake.
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i remembered a story long ago when -- and paul were in haiti looking over a huge slump issues fell to a wave of hopelessness thinking how could i ever do anything to fix these problems and he put his hand on her shoulder and said let's see what we can do what little place. they started there now 816 of the country and have partnerships with everybody that will be partners with them. maybe is a general principle i should shut up pretty soon but i do think there's a real problem with integration for lack of integration. there is something on the order of 10,000 ngos private organizations working in haiti and look at the results, but terrific. that might be a clue there
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is something wrong with the way it is being done. badly needs reforestation every significant rain store will continue to drive a lot of people. think you. [applause] >> if there are no more questions we will meet on the far side of the elevators to sign the root cause
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>> i want to welcome you here tonight to busboys and poets in washington d.c. and the rest of you're around the country to the launch of a terrific new book, it "the spirit level." i am the director of the institute for policy studies and this week i ps has launched a new study during
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the first year of the obama administration called barely making the grade, obama's first year and you can read more of it, but website ips-dc.org. apply to think in addition to the institute of policies and studies busboys and poets with their remarkable founder, who is our house tonight as well as the independent bookstore that works with busboys and is housed in the washington headquarters teaching for change. you can buy "the spirit level" at the bookstore and thousands of others from teaching for change on there website witches
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teachingforchange.org. i encourage you to come and visit us if you were here at the 14th & e street nw. i remember when obama's said during a six do better when we shared our wealth of our future president could not be more correct berkeley have the best evidence yet in a new book the guardians of weekly newspaper in the u.k. says it may be the most important new book of the year. the two british authors, the evident epidemiologists richard wilkinson and kate pickett are both with us this evening. they -- the epidemiologists are scientists said talk about the health of the populations over the last 20
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years dr. wilkinson has a broker exciting ground on income gaps on our health and life span. his dramatic work has shown people in equal to eight -- unequal society nablus shorter and healthier lives than their counterparts in societies with narrower gaps between the rich and everyone else. richard wilkinson and his colleague kate pickett in their new remarkable "the spirit level" why greater equality make societies stronger" extend the analysis far beyond health too virtually every quality of life marker that matters. they and their book with a tribute to dr. martin luther king. nothing could be appropriate as we celebrate dr. king finn to welcome these two outstanding scholar activists, true champions of dr. king's legacy and spirit.
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i want you to welcome richard wilkinson and kate pickett and we will start with richard wilkinson. [applause] >> the key very much. it is lovely to be here and it is a store called the we should have this on martin luther king day it feels the right thing to do. can we have on the projector whoever is controlling that? i think we're here to tell you what you already know. many people for hundreds of years of at the intuition that any quality and income differences are socially divisive and corrosive. that is all i need to show you. intuition is sure that we have imagined. we thought what you might feel different from what we deal with in our everyday life but what is surprising
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is a difference of inequality between democracies or the quality of our lives. we will take you through the data. before i do so i should just clear up one thing. the title of our book, "the spirit level" mini americans don't know what that means are what we mean. in england it is a confidence level. it has to do with the social gradients in the inequalities that a lot of our book has graft with sloping line so that is the adl of the spirit level. what i want to start with is
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an extraordinary contrast between the means of our society and what it means between the rich and developed societies almost everything we say this evening will be about rich develops democracies than here on the left is a graphic is life expectancy up the side in relation to national and tom you probably can't read these pettus weeded norway usa portugal japan denmark ireland and rich developed country like that all highly comparable. some of them are twice as rich as others. if you take the actual prices some people in these countries will find twice as much as people in those countries although reno the health this systematically
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worsen the port areas of the inner cities when the whole society gets richer it helps one middle bit but between the society's this is the age adjusted death rates come actually it is 300,000 white men classified by the median incomes of the areas of which they live. it is old data but here on the right here with the lowest death rates and on the left other zip code areas with the highest death rates. this is right across a society this is not a difference between the poor and the rest of society by social status it would tell us something about their health and longevity. but what this is really showing is and come means nothing anymore in terms of standards but still very
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important within our society. that tells us the book we're dealing with within our society is relative of a social status, where we are in relation to each other. what kate and i will do was show you what happens when you stretch out the differences or diminish them. you may be puzzled of course, we all knew that the poor countries have a much lower life expectancy with workers' health in every way. if you look at the rich and poor countries together compared to her person there are rapid gains in the early stages of economic development but then you have a diminishing returns and if you just look at these countries that i said before appear, no relation any more. if i showed you a graphic it
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will book very similar with big gains in the early stages of economic growth than petering out. that is because having more when you don't have the basic necessities of life is important just getting more and more of everything makes less and less difference to real measures of the quality of life for human beings did you know, if you look at them measures of well-being over time of the average levels double or triple imagine a flat line. so we are the first generation to what economic ruth -- growth can do for us. for hundreds of years the best way to raise the quality of life was to raise material living standards but we have gotten to the end of that. that is a historical point* particularly when we
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increasingly understand the environmental damage further growth will do. of course, we all want more money but that has to do with the competition. the economic growth is now a zero sum game in the rich and developed world. but at any rate we will talk about effective and the quality. we don't use any hypothetical data simply looking at the differences of any quality among the rich developed markets in democracies it is simply how much is the richest 20% in each country compared to the poorest 20%? you will see japan, finland norway and sweden it is 3.5 44 times as rich. between 20%. but if you look at them more equally and australia, u.k., portugal or
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the u.s. it is eight times as rich so we are twice as and eco- on that measure as the country's on the other end. we think of the country's very similar but that is an important difference and it makes an astonishing difference to social problems. increasingly come i think we are worried about the contrast between the materials of our societies and the social failings and this is just an illustration of how the media constantly preoccupied with teenage births or prisoner crowding or all of those issues that come up over time. what we have done is collect internationally comparable data on some of those programs actually what we found his life expectancy in each country with literacy scores test allow you to
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compare how well kids are doing in different countries with infant mortality rates mortality rates in prisoner rates, a teenage birth rates, levels of trust how much people feel they can trust. obesity and mental illness better who figures including drug and alcohol and social mobility how much people are moving up and down the social hierarchy. we put these into one index of social problems. they are weighted equally if you know, statistics we use those gore's so we're a country is this the average position affected as much by homicides as social mobility. and here you see how that index is related to income in a quality that measure that i just showed you so
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along the bottom the right-hand side of the more equal countries, u.s.a., portugal, britain and austria doing much worse on all of these problems on the more equal end you have the nordic countries and japan which is a continuous ingredient right across them if you put that same index exactly the same figures up the side in relation to national income per person, no relationship. you may think it would suggest another downward slope but forget about portugal and remember usa is up there. there was no relationship between the two. so although all of those problems are more common in the poorest areas it doesn't make a difference to people get richer to gather. we wondered if this was politically explosive stuff
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if people would dismiss it as an international dissipation differences of international culture so we look at it amongst the 58 states of the u.s.a.. what an old up internationally holds up in a different setting. here is the same index almost the same measures in relation two and come and the quality is highly significant and cannot just we dismissed. will look at all of the health and social problems in both settings in our book and show you the data the picture is substantially the same in both of those different settings. we were also worried that people might think we have chosen problems to suit our argument so we looked at the united nations index of a
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child well-being and said problem is other people made up the index with 40 different components or aspects of child well-being went into the index go whether they have books at home or bullying have school and a lot of things go into it. if you look at it in relation to in a quality you find a clear relationship again a very strong tendency for the more unequal countries the u.k. does worst of all you do exactly what we would expect given your level of inequality. once more, if you look at the same relationship, that same index to national income per person, with same index of child well-being
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well-being, absolutely no relationship. so it does not matter of the countries are getting richer what matters is the gaps between us in the distance up and down the hierarchy that matters. handed over to take now that will show you the individual relationships and i will come back later. >> good evening. it is really special to be here on this particular day and it is always nice to come back to the states and live here 16 years i always find day warm welcome although i am a bit more unsure although i have a thankless task of showing the united states where they are doing rather badly and i
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will take you through some of those individual components about social problems mostly to show you the scale of the problem. i will start with lovell's of trust. these days they come from the world that use survey and show the proportion of the population of each country that first people can be trusted prepare random samples of the population are asked to you think other people can be trusted or not? or are they out to get you? suisse been denmark netherlands, it is about two-thirds of the population feel that others can be trusted and the unequal end is support to go and singapore that we vocationally have data and it is less than one-fifth of the population that seal others can be trusted. and here is the same pattern
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for the united states. coming from the survey that asks exactly the same question of random samples in different states do think most of the people can be trusted or not? again in the more equal states in new hampshire, you talk of a wisconsin, wyoming , iowa 2/3 think others can be trusted and it is down to about one-third in a more unequal states. i want you to think about what that means to live with those different societies what does it feel like to live in a society where the vast majority of the population trust one another when compared to a minority what is it like as a woman to walk alone and encounters strangers on the street? letter things like of day-to-day life? his mental illness
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illness, did -- the data comes from the who that sets up a consortium specifically to provide these comparable in all this from other countries and down at the more equal end less than 10% of the population at this is the adult population that has some kind of mental illness in the past 12 months that the more unequal and we have 23 percent of us with usa at the top with a 26% so great then one and four. the scale of the differences hits it is important how big these differences are they will tell us what is not confined to a poor minority or sub population group. of these differences are so big they affect very large portion of the society.
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the mortality rates of working age men come from colleagues in canada and they compare in green the u.s. states in the red dots of the canadian province since. in relation to in measure of income inequality is the more equal end -- unequal and you can see a strong correlation between any quality and mortality rates. and there have been about 200 studies and it is clear with the robust -- robust relationship and one published in a medical journal included 60 million individuals and showed a statistically statistical impact on life expectancy and health. year is violence. these come from other colleagues comparing the u.s. states and canadian
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provinces again and we have homicides per 1 million people. the canadian provinces are triangles i am not sure you can tell her you're sitting. the circles are the states. down here there are about 50 murdered her million people per year. up and the more unequal u.s. states it is about 150. bad is a 10 fold difference a huge difference strongly correlated with the quality and -- with in the quality. here are teenage birth rates. four different countries that are less than 10,000 with women europe and in the u.s.a. is up there. and this data is rather crew data that we having mask the
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more complexity with the stark differences between because these young women in japan having babies as teenagers are 80 percent of them are married and having their babies in that context of course, the opposite is true in the u.k. and the u.s.a.. here is drug use data from the united nations with zero kids can of this ecstasy and methamphetamines and high drug use and a more unequal countries and significantly less use of a less drugs and unequal societies. here are rates of imprisonment this look similar to the index of social problems the relationship is so tight if you know, a comfort level of any quality you can
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predict the rate of imprisonment and this is a a slightly different scale than others and we have shown you. it is on a large scale that means it is different between 10 and 100 the same is the difference between 1,000 because of the rise he would be somewhere up there on the ceiling with the line curving up so high pressure the other one that does not quite fit a very accurate picture is greece which has a much lower level of imprisonment then you would expect and that should be lower because two of them escape 378 days gave rather dramatically a helicopter landed to people guided and flew away. it was a big story in the media back home not because how they escaped but because it was the second time they had done it by helicopter.
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[laughter] but it is really important to tell you the rates of imprisonment are particularly correlated with rates of crime. what we're seeing here is a tendency for more unequal societies to have harsh systems of justice and harsh criminal systems when you come into the criminal justice system you're more likely to be sent to prison and more likely to be sent there for much longer. year the imprisonment rates for the u.s. states, those in blue have abolished the death penalty those in red have retained it you can see those the board equal states have abolished the death penalty. i am sorry. 200 prisoners her 100,000 and 700 and the more unequal states and criminologist here have assessed only about one-third of the
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changing states been president rates are changes in grades it is due to the greater sending two people to prison and in california over 300 people in prison for life for shoplifting and in the uk we send mostly women to prison for shoplifting every day. here is conflict among children those levels of violence are not just restricted to adults. here we have data from who survey of school age children and combine to the proportion if they have been aggressive to somebody else in the proportion that don't find their porsche -- peers kind and hopeful.
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they find that much lower than at the more equal and and and there is the u.k. doing particularly badly on the measure of child well-being. moving on to education we can show you data on math and literacy scores but here we show you the percentage of kids that drop out of high school prayer but the more equal lend it is tender 15% of kids that dropout and more than one quarter in a more unequal states a strong correlation with state levels of any quality. here is social mobility really have data on a few countries put together by the school of economics it is a measure of a correlation between a fathers and come when his son is board so asks does rich dads have rich sons' or
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is that injured generational income mobility? that correlation is in no. norway sweden fined 11 enter me scoring high on this measure and the land of opportunity the u.s.a. write down here at the bottom. have made that point* is related to a range of social problems in much more than we have time to show you tonight. but to make a point* it affects all of us in the benefits largely extend all the way up and it is damaged by higher levels of any quality. now to show you this we need to show you studies where
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people of different socio-economic positions in different societies are compared. here is data from british epidemiologist published in the "journal" of american medical association looking at the health of white men in england compared to the u.s.a.. english men under the darker blue are american men looking at the prevalence of diabetes, hypertension, a cancer, lung disease and heart disease and one-third of education so here are the lowest educated men and the highest educated. you can see the social gradient in these health outcomes except for cancer with a lower prevalence of disease. but you can see in every comparison even in the top
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third of education and distribution, and then in more of an equal usa are more equal than the u.k.. here's hour own example looking at the death rates of working age people, about 3,000 u.s. counties committees of the county's and a more equal states of the less equal states. and they are arranged by county level and come and affluence in the pork counties and makes a big difference for the death rate to be in a more equal states. but with every level of income there is an advantage to living in a more equal state even in the county's it is better to the then the equal state. and here's some data on educational achievement data
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from a colleague in canada of comparing the literacy scores of young adults their range by years of education their parents have had here are the kids are the least educated parents here we have the most the call canada which comes about in the middle and the u.s.a. and it makes a big difference among the children of the least educated parents to be in a more equal country but that extends all the way up even to the children of the parents with the highest levels of education. so you will not get richer or more educated by living in a more equal country but you will benefit at every level of education from the u.s. society with a greater equality. because the quality increases competition it
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makes status and many more important, people are working longer hours. so material things are more important to express the status to work harder. these are the two data from two economist and the relationship of any quality and you're working nine full weeks longer per year than people of other equal countries of think of all of the things you could do with an extra nine weeks every year. i will hand back to richard and he will talk about some of the possible alternative explanations for what we're showing you. >> >> if you think it is important you should not think of income in the quality as something superficial but more of a framework from which all of
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the social status of differentiation takes place. if we look at luxury fever or one french sociologists they make it very clear how people using their money to express status differentiation. you know, about the designer labels and handbags and cars and why those are important to people so think about status differentiation and how would is powered by the material differences. doled think of power and money and status as separate -- separate things they are all about the same and if you think of the connections between the human hierarchies and the monkey ranking systems, you will see how the status, power and wealth all go together and that is when they do the damage.
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but i will come back to this graph which i showed you earlier all of these problems are put together in one index. too really important points one is that you have noticed in every graph if you look at the others come it is always the same countries that do badly. usa is always up at the top and britain is not for behind and it is always the same ones that do well, japan, nordic countries and a few others. what we're looking at is a general social dysfunction related to inequality not saying simply that what we're showing that you will find more people locked up in prison and also more teenage births. there is a tendency for the problems to move together
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and you need a fundamental explanation of why those problems should move together. the other important issue is to think if there are other explanations. look at that line of countries in the think are right to it emphasize any quality like this? remember it is not just a bunch of these countries but 50 states come decade to mention there are 200 studies in different settings whether the region's of russia or what happened to the eastern european countries during the transition come in the quality seems to be predictive outcomes.
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one possibility some people raising is it is culture, not any quality. before they look ideographs for look at the book but the thing they suggest is the speaking cultures that do badly u.k. new zealand tolstoy and u.k. but you do not have to argue just cut them off and there's still a highly significant relationship even without them. and some of the outcomes it explains why one may do much worse than the others. alternatively they suggest the nordiques are not like the rest of us. they are a funny lot. you can cut them off and you still have a significant relationship up that and did you think of cultural similarities and differences let me point* out two pairs
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one is poor to go up there spain is down there. they share a border and a similar culture and both have dictatorships but now they do so different the and their rates in social problems are close the predicted by the inequality. alternatively look at sweden and the japan. they both do well but they both do well in extraordinarily different ways on the basis of culture that could hardly defer more and think of the position of women in japan and sweden there is the near gender equality them probably any other. japan is very much in the reverse how do they get the greater and come difference that is quite contrasting in sweden they have big
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differences and they redistribute for the taxes and benefits it is a big welfare state but in japan there are smaller differences and much less read distribution and smaller social expenditure. and then they would do well. we find the same contrast among the american states and new hampshire does well i think the state motto is live free or die and i think they have the most taxation of any state except alaska but yet to vermont is a neighbor is rather contrasting with higher social expenditures or looks as if it does not matter how you get the quality as long as you get it somehow. i should go through another suggested explanations people say you have the
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whole relationship because of all of the social problems that create any quality if you try to use that kind of explanation first you have to explain what it is that is moving all of those different problems to gather. why are they consistently worse in some countries and better and others? what is the common underlying cause that means a country tends to do well or badly on most of them? and whatever your nominate as a o cross pass to explain this relationship in so many different settings and also explain why in the quality moves with all of those other things. quite if you actually related to inequality are the child outcomes and it is hard to see how they would affect any quality.
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i do except you can have a new political ideology within the theory of reagan and thatcher we had monetarism new liberal economics there were a trade union laws that week and trade unions for changes of taxes and benefits which i give to the rising inequality in that point*. with those political leaders never intended to increase violence are teenage birth or obesity ordered drug problems that is the unintended consequences. so i accept a new politics can lead to wider income differences but what follows from that are the social and health consequences we have been pointing out. one thing people often raise is ethnicity or immigration
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as a cause brocades has already show do with the contrast between the u.k. and the american rates of who this those slides that show diabetes and heart disease and so on. that is among the wider population is. the things she has been showing you the differences are so bizarre they cannot possibly be explained in terms of what is happening to the porous tender 15% of the society. you can't explain that in terms of worst outcomes and not just the me crude group and is remarkably good they don't seem to suffer the expected social consequences of the education and income and in many measures it is not so far off of the whites and indeed the u.s.a. has about the same foreign-born
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minority has sweden. the last point* i make before i stop is people say just small countries do well. but actually portugal is up there. when we have data, singapore , but if you actually way the data, despite population size, the correlations go up because usa is the biggest country there in the next biggest country is in japan. you have small countries and large countries that both hands. nobody has yet suggested an explanation that cannot easily be dismissed. this is what happens to and come distribution in the u.s.a. since 1975, the steep rise during the '80s doing up until the early 90's and
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it has been leveling since then. the data rises since 2005. says tell people feel when they have a similar rise 70 quality and they can detect the effect of that on society. the quality of social relations becomes more antisocial. if you want more of this you can get it from our book. each chapter deals with a different problem and shows the data and goes through the kind of explanations applied just to that particular outcome. it is what we have said basically a set of slides you can download. however let me end by saying i think the take-home message is that we must adopt thinking of raising the quality of human life by raising material standards
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by a the consumerism and realize instead would already make a difference to the quality of our life is what affects the quality of the social environment and relationships between us to recognize there is strong evidence that governments and other authorities can improve the well-being of a well society by narrowing the differences between them so i will stop there. [applause] >> will now invite you to come up if you ask them at this microphone here. value come up by one to to say i now understand why growing up in new hampshire was such a good thing. and i didn't realize it was such an equal state but i think we should change the
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state from live free or die two liv fico or dae. we will start with gray get this microphone a. >> thank you for the excellent presentation i did read the book last week. if the politicians raise these issues they are accused of and 17 class warfare and i like to ask your in addition to doing a great book and talking about what can be done to generate a real conversation that would result in a real conversation about inequality leading to policies that would do something about any quality? >> i think we would start by saying that by showing a whole range of evidence that is a powerful place to start you can discuss from the
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evidence rather than the ideological point* of view you can see clearly the damage done by inequality. but i want to point* out that you as americans have actually been among the more equal of the developed countries for a large part of the 20th century. you have much higher levels of the quality health ranking much better with the rest of the world of course, your country is founded on the principles of equality and democracy and the adl that this is a entrenched peculiar american problem that cannot be fixed, you have a history of greater egalitarianism and founding principles of stress those things. it is not about class or by returning to your roots so you need to take back that language avoided is to be an american and what your
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countries aims and goals of your society should be. >> i think the relationship is exactly the other way around by a with a difference issue create a class war and in the conscience of illiberal it shows that how in periods of greater income the quality be trained democrats and the quality of otherwise there is no overlap that all quote democrats coincide and republicans the other side and it does the first to change this we have to realize how with its in with the need to carbon emissions in the greatest threat to to the environmental policies is consumerism that is driven by the state is competition which is made to
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us and amplified by greater inequality. that is what makes the struggle to keep up with each other. what we need actually is a clear picture of where our society's need to go to with a transformation. instead of being depressed and feeling there is nothing we can do about these problems we should be able to paint a picture how we can improve the real quality of life for all of us and solve the environmental problems. we're consuming three times as much as we need if we want to maintain current levels of life expectancy on a given technology it is about one-third of our levels of consumption and carbon emissions. even on a sustained technology. we can preserve equality of our lives by moving in that direction but instead of being an appeal to be
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altruistic on the behalf of the poor minorities it is about the well-being of all of us. together. >> thank you for coming i am just curious as to when you think the gap will begin to close? if there will be more dispersion dorothy will see a trend of the third-party getting closer together? >> unknowing current levels of inequality we don't see a trend over time except the last slide ratio actually things have been at a high level for quite a while and the same is true of britain. there are countries that did not have that fast rise and wonder to became more equal over the same period. it is hard to predict what will happen but i do think that the moment with the
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economic recession and credit crunch and anchor about runaway top salaries and bonuses that is now public discourse so i try to be a optimistic we now have the evidence that we need to create a social movement and i hope to have that gap clothes but i don't have any evidence on how to do so. >> thank you both. this was an extraordinary eye opener to see it in such stark terms. two questions. first with consumer is them i am curious as we build a social movement on the question of equality and in equality is there a history anywhere we have seen greater equality move from
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the top rather than an increase from the bottom? >> that is a question of war and militarism if you drop out portugal, it looks like you have the most militarily the aggressive countries that match the most unequal the u.s., canada australia and new zealand and white colonials and not necessarily correlated to military spending japan spends a huge amount but it does not use that spending around the world is that something that matches as well but not instead of as the inequality gap? thank you. >> i think japan is an example of a country where top and come i think japanese directors did not
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pay themselves as much and the differences have been widening i think there was some pride they did not pay themselves a huge sum partly that they promoted more people from within the company who of loyalties to other people so it became a bit more embarrassing to lay off employees while giving yourself a big huge bonus but also trade union leaders that was a possibility but also employee representatives on the board and actually been made to develop all forms of workplace of economic democracy to embed the equality in our society in giving democratic control to the scale of differences in the rethink your boss should get three times as much or maybe 10 times as much but not three or 400 times as much.
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the bonuses at the top of simply ben a reflection of a complete lack of any democratic control for anything made up by having representatives on the board that we should try to promote new tolls, cooperatives, a friendly societies or whatever we can to change the structure of the workplace. the question about militarism. >> yes it is time a shame we don't have time to show you more but more equal countries score better on the global piece index and you are right some of those are among the more aggressive but that does not explain the relationships between different u.s. states or the health care social problems that we look at the remember the figures on trust? it does seem more equal societies are more socially
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cohesive. there act together for the common good mother for their own society so we find more equal societies donate a higher proportion to foreign aid and recycle more of their waste and even business leaders think government should comply with international environmental agreements. all along with that piece index there is a clear indication of four public spiritedness people less out for themselves and maybe that is reflected in the military questions. >> sorry to go on but if you graph a dog eat dog society that becomes the model of human nature in the think you can always the fed on sticks and carrots. if there is a fundamental
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shift of what appears to be human nature of that society >> i want to emphasize our focus that we could create tsai pacesetter eco- and by a doing that you would get a better outcome than that becomes more of a question that we're moving down the slope basically that by a decreasing income inequality in the united states or compared to germany. [laughter] my question is to parts. the first one is empirical to compare country over times and i have not read your book and if you have

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